How Do You Build a Successful Marketing Strategy for Brands? (w/ Jess Fogal)
How do you build a successful marketing strategy for brands?
Intro:Do you ever wish life had an undo button? Walking the balance between a business and a creative life can be hard. But now Shelby are here to attempt to answer the tough questions, so you don't need an undo. Presented by Made by Things, this is the Command z Show.
Matt:And we're back with another episode of the Command z Show. Shelby, how are you doing?
Shelby:I'm doing pretty good.
Matt:Pretty good. I knew you were saying that.
Shelby:Pretty good. We'll start with our regular chat about the weather. It's getting cold here. It's, like, 60 degrees today. It's supposed to be snowing by
Matt:the end of the week. It's, like, 30 here.
Shelby:Ah.
Matt:It was snowing yesterday.
Shelby:It's gonna be snowing, yeah, like, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Not looking forward to it.
Matt:Yep. And you, for for the listeners, you are now in Iowa, not
Shelby:Sioux City, Iowa. Indeed.
Matt:Yep. It's very similar names, but different state. You were in Sioux Falls, and now you're in Sioux City.
Shelby:To Sioux City.
Matt:So Sue Sue Sue Sue Sue Sue's sock. I I can't remember how it goes. What's Sue sews Sue's socks or something like that. Sue Sue sews. Alright.
Matt:Listen. Shelby, stop distracting me, please. Yeah. We have, we have a very important guest on today. Jess, how are you doing?
Jess:I'm good. I'm, right here with you in Columbus, so I'm also experiencing this very cold and sad weather after the trickery of last weekend where it was gorgeous. So Yep. But other than that, I'm good.
Matt:Nice. Love it. While I would love to talk about the weather for the next 50 minutes, let's, let's get more into this. Just tell us a little bit more about yourself before we ask you this, this really difficult question we're going to ask. It's not that difficult.
Jess:So I live here in Columbus, Ohio. I lead marketing and culture for a fintech called Provide. While we're nationwide and our services are nationwide, most of our employees are around the Columbus area, so we do have an office here. And we were acquired by 5th Third Bank about two and a half years ago. I my background is all in startup marketing.
Jess:I'm brand building, starting when a company is pretty small and seeing them through the high growth phases. And that's just my passion and my love and how we started working together. And I assume we'll probably dive into that. So I'll keep all those details
Matt:Probably.
Jess:For now. Yeah. That's the very quick and dirty overview.
Matt:Nice. You know, there there's a lot about the work that that you do specifically, Jess, and a lot about just the team that you have around you that, that I've admired a lot. And that's that's one of the big reasons that, that I definitely wanna get you on the show. Yes. You know, we've we've worked together on a number of projects, probably a dozen or so more Mhmm.
Matt:Over the last, let's say, 2 to 3 years. And during that time, I feel like I've gotten, and Shelby as well, I've gotten a chance to really kind of see how see some of the inner workings of how provide works and how a healthy marketing team sort of works together. And, I don't know. It's just it's it's always been it's it's been very inspiring to see that stuff. And, yeah, just excited to be able to get you on here and drew a little bit deeper into into some of that stuff.
Matt:So
Shelby:Absolutely.
Matt:So with that being said, Shelby, why don't you kick us off here?
Shelby:For sure. So we're gonna get into the big question of the day, and, of course, we'll go into some details later. But the big question for today is, how do you build a successful marketing strategy for brands?
Jess:That is a very big question. So I don't know if you want me to jump into just my long winded response to that or if we wanna really break it down. But I
Matt:think that Go. Yeah. Go. Big thing.
Jess:Yeah. So, Matt, I think you already hit on what I believe is the most important part and that's the people around you, to build a really strong brand, especially from the ground up or to refresh an existing brand in a completely new and exciting way, you have to have a team of people who are very passionate about brand, about storytelling, about bringing something, I think, typically empathetic, and exciting to the market. And you have to not only have that team around you in terms of the marketing group, but you also need a leadership team that supports that vision. And I would say as a marketer, our biggest partner is the sales team. You need a sales leader who also supports that vision.
Jess:And so I would say that's what you need to really start. And then from there, without going into all the details, I think you need to have a really good understanding of your customer. I'll you know, and that can be hard sometimes because if you start to think about, well, what do what do we want this brand to be? It's very easy to be to say, what do I want this brand to be? How do I feel?
Jess:What excites me? But for the most part, you're probably not the actual customer of your product. And so you need to spend some time researching what does my customer what speaks to them? What do they want? What would be exciting for them to see, and what's new to the market?
Jess:How can I be a little daring without pushing too far? And how do I make sure that this new brand is really gonna resonate with who we're trying to get in front of? And then as you're building it out, I think, you know, one of the my biggest pieces of advice for that process is being very open minded and not getting too personally attached to anything that you come to the table with. Because I think that's the easiest way to get stuck in a mindset that's not going to actually get you where you wanna be. So just be open to feedback across the board, while also I mean, I think we've all heard, you know, too many chefs in the kitchen.
Jess:You never get anything done. So you have to it's a balancing act. But I would I would say that, you know, it's important to have that piece though because especially other areas within the business, if you bring those ideas to the table, you're open to feedback. You're, you can back it with customer research and insights. It's a lot easier to bring people along the journey.
Jess:So when you do launch that brand and you're trying to, like, sell the brand, you have a lot of internal advocates and cheerleaders because they've been a part of the process and you didn't just work in a marketing silo and then surprise everybody and they're like, what in the world? This is not what we expected. And so I think, you know, those are maybe the 3 or 4 key things to really building a strong brand from the ground up.
Matt:Yeah. There there's so much in what you just said that I wanna kinda dive into some of the smaller chunks. The the first thing right here, you say that it takes storytelling and empathy. These are two words that almost every marketing team will use. And I'm not trying to just give you compliments for, again, the next 40:45 minutes or so, but, it's real easy for teams to say those things, but it's a whole different story to actually care about those things, to actually implement those things.
Matt:And I think that you and your team have actually done just a really extraordinary job of not just saying it, but actually doing it, allowing it to sort of exist in in certain times. Now, I mean, at your previous places that you've worked, I'm sure that you've probably encountered some of this too. Is that is that fair to say?
Jess:Yes.
Matt:So how do you how do you do that then? Like, how do you how do you actually do it, not just say it?
Jess:That's a great question, and that goes back to my point about leadership being bought in. I won't name all my prior companies, but, you know, we even tried to work together for a few of them. Right. And, thankfully, we were finally able to. But I I think as a marketer, your your heart and soul lies within that storytelling piece.
Jess:Right? Even if you're, like, marketing ops or analytics, like, you still have that creative storytelling side of you. And you know that that's really what's going to move the needle overall. Where it becomes an issue is when your leadership team doesn't have the same vision and doesn't support that and doesn't really understand how that can be such a big part of the overall company strategy and growth. And so I think, you know, a lot of times marketing in general, specifically brand is seen as fluffy, and kind of like, well, you know what leads did that drive?
Jess:And you're like, well, that's not really the way it works. And so you need to have a leadership team that really understands why the story is so important. And beyond that, again, back to bringing people along with you, making sure that the other teams within your business who are going to really be out there talking about the brand and promoting the brand, understand the story and understand why that's a meaningful part of who you are and can move that along with you. And I guess this is maybe a tangent, but maybe not. When I talk, when I mean or when I talk about brand, I'm not just talking about the marketing brand that you see on Linkedin and ads.
Jess:I'm also talking about the internal culture, right? Like who are you as a company? Who who like when someone goes to your jobs page, who are they working for? What do they see? What makes them excited about you?
Jess:Because that's the same thing that internally they're gonna see in your holistic brand that gets them excited about going out to the market and telling your story. And so I think, you know, that's how you can actually implement the storytelling side is to kind of have all those pieces, working together and a team surrounding you that's bought into that idea. Because as you mentioned, some of the places I worked at before were not as bought in, and that's where it's just much harder to implement.
Matt:Right. And you said it yourself where it's like there's generally this sort of, like, conflict between the marketing and sales teams. Just over over my last, I don't know, 9, 10 years of of working with people, it's led to a lot of weird uncomfortable situations where I'm like, oh, well, you said that you wanna do this. And, like but, like, the sales team doesn't, like, agree with you and then just leads to these weird things where it's understandable that leadership would want results as soon as they can possibly get it. Right?
Matt:And I think that's why there's there's always this, like, I don't know. I don't wanna call it favoritism, but, like, a little bit towards the sales side of things because sales can kinda make things happen a little bit quicker. Right? But I think that that's kind of what I'm saying here is, like, when it comes to, like, that story side of things, it's really difficult to tell. Like, hey, sales team.
Matt:We're gonna try to tell better stories and really try to actually build some sort of brand here. And for them, they're like, just give me some phone numbers that I can call, and then, like, I'll make it happen. Like, that's generally their attitude. And I think that's that's one of the other things that I that I see with what you all all are doing where it's like, well, that doesn't really seem to be the case. I'm I'm sure there's a little bit of that, but, like Mhmm.
Matt:It seems like there is actually, like, a good relationship between the two teams. I know you wouldn't throw them under the bus right now if that wasn't the case, but how does that marketing side and the sales side work together so well at provide?
Jess:Yeah. So, I mean, we really have the best sales team. Part of the interview process I met with our CRO who was head of sales at the time quite a few times. And, you know, I've had both good and bad experiences with sales leaders in my past, and I could tell from the very beginning that he was very authentic, and really respected what marketing was trying to do and what it could do. And so it made me feel really good about joining provide.
Jess:And just over the past, almost 3 years, it's that's proven to be the case, not just the sales leader, but also the entire sales team. And so I think, you know, to your point about there being friction, I think there's friction when there's one not an understanding of, like well, there's again, I'm gonna harp on this so many times, but it's you don't have any buy in from leadership. Right? But the second thing is if a marketing team because truly marketing's whole purpose is to help sell. Right?
Jess:And so we are an extension, of the sales team in that way. And so if marketing does all this, like, brand and story work, but then provides no tools or ways for sales to share that easily, then that's gonna create friction. Right? And so I think one thing that we're really good about here at provide, and this is a testament mostly to the not me or the sales leader, but to our teams working together really well, is that anything that we create, we try and create multiple tools the sales team can use and take to the market that helps them in their conversations. So we're trying to make their job easier for them, not trying to add something on and not trying to, like, you know, fit what's the a square peg in a round hole or that that might be backwards.
Jess:I don't know. And so I think, working together that way can really help bridge that gap when it comes to understanding what brand is trying to do and also help alleviate some of the conversations around, well, what are the exact metrics and how many leads did you get me? Because they know that we're all doing this together and I'm moving towards the same goal together.
Matt:Right. I I think a lot of people listening right now. I I guess what I imagine is a lot of people listening are more on the creative side, so they're very familiar with a little bit more of that marketing side of things. But I think that that that connection to the sales side is something that people generally try not to look at because that sales side kind of makes them feel a little bit icky. But I think, like, I just I love how you say that where it's like, oh, no.
Matt:It's an extension. Like, you kinda have to work together as one unit to be able to sort of make things work. I really like that. The other thing that I I don't think that you're probably giving yourself enough credit for, is the fact that it it doesn't seem like there's any ego from anyone involved on your team to where, you know, somebody in your position could easily say, I do not like that. Do something else.
Matt:And you could, you know, you could you have this sort of, we'll call it, power. Right? And that's that's something else that I see at at other teams where some people in the same role as you, they just they handle it a completely different way. Not to say if it's it's right or wrong, but just how you work with your team as a leader, It just it seems like you are constantly trying to give power to, everyone else kind of on the team. And I say that, you know, as, you know, we were an outside vendor working through things, and I felt like we had a lot of, I don't know, kind of creative power to be able to try things, to be able to do things.
Matt:Why do you feel like that's the the right approach in in doing this kind of stuff?
Jess:Well, first, thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I that's a really good question, and it's I'm struggling to answer because other than me just that's just how I work. I'm like, why do I work that way? I think that I I just realized that I can learn a lot from other people.
Jess:And I also realized that, like, I'm not expected to have all the answers. So why should I act like I have all the answers? And even when I think I have the answer that might not be the best one. So let's have a conversation about it and that, you know, applies to people on my team, people people that we work with, our partners. And it's just, you know, if I when I've been in situations of where I bring an idea to the table that I think is good, I've, you know, I've been thoughtful and intentional with the presentation of it, and it's knocked down because, like, I'm not the person in power.
Jess:Like, that doesn't feel good. And very quickly, you start just being quiet and saying, yep, whatever.
Matt:Right.
Jess:And Right. As a creative team, that's the I think one of probably the worst things you could have. And so, like, you know, I I didn't build this team to have everyone just sit there and say yes. I built it so we could all grow together. I mean, I think our Barclay video is, like, a great example of that.
Jess:Right? Like, I never would have thought of that video, but, you know, one of our team members felt empowered to bring that to the table, and we all had a discussion. And I think that's probably my favorite video we've done and one of my favorite projects in my entire career. And I had nothing to do with make like, bringing that to the table. You know what I mean?
Jess:And so it's just I think there just needs to be a respect for everyone's voice, and understanding that we can all have like, we can bring something unique. And I think removing the pressure because I think sometimes in a role like mine, there's some pressure to be like, well, I have to have all the answers. And if my answers aren't always right, then, like, maybe I shouldn't be in this role. And that's just not true, I mean, in life. So there's life advice.
Jess:This Nice. None of us know much of anything.
Matt:Right. And I don't know. I guess that's that's it though where I I guess that's the ego thing. Right? Where it's like if you felt that pressure in that role.
Matt:Like, I we have different roles, but, like, I I feel the same way where I'm like, okay. Well, I I love to give the power to my team. And any times I can, Shelby's awkwardly nodding here. I I I try to find those places where it's like, alright. Here you go, kid.
Matt:Like, this is your chance. Like, do the thing. Right? And I I just I'd love to be surprised by what people come up with, and I think it's, like, super fun. But, like, I totally hear you.
Matt:Like, there's some projects that we do where I'm like, wait. What was, like, my role in that exactly? Like like, some days I feel like I I play an important role and some days I'm like, I could walk away right now, and I bet you they would still do a great job.
Jess:Mhmm.
Matt:And I don't know. Like, it's it can be both, like, rewarding and a little say, depressing, but, like, a little bit sometimes Yeah. Like, when you kind of
Jess:Yeah.
Matt:Do that. But I I still think it takes it takes good leadership to be able to take that step away sometimes. Shelby, I I wanna hear your opinion on this a little bit.
Shelby:Yeah. No. I think this is really interesting because I think this is one of the reasons why our two teams work together so well. And, like, on the last episode, we were talking about, like, okay, the role of the producer and kind of the communication between teams. And something that I really love, like, when I'm communicating between our artists and with the provide team is, like, everybody feels involved.
Shelby:Everyone feels like they have a voice, and we were even talking about this yesterday during our team meeting, is the artists that have worked on all of our provide projects, you know, it's usually kind of like the same team of, like, the 3 of us in in there working on these on these videos. We we all have, like, a very similar rhythm. We know that we feel empowered when we're working on those videos. You know, we're all very confident working on them because we feel like the provide team is also really confident, and we feel like they all have a voice within this as well. And I think that's one of the things that really works well with our teams because everybody feels empowered and feels like they're a part of the team.
Shelby:And I think that that's really something like it's it's a testament to provide and the team that you've been able to build there because it makes us feel comfortable, which, I mean, if you're able to create an out you know, make an outside team feel comfortable on a project, That's just an extension of, you know, the atmosphere that you've been able to build.
Jess:Right. Makes me so happy to hear that you all feel that way working with us. I mean, I feel, you know, like, why would you just, like, why would you hire someone and then constantly tell them no? Like, why would you work with a external partner and constantly be like, no. Like, your ideas don't matter.
Jess:It's like, what am I paying you for? Right? You had there has to be a level of trust and respect.
Matt:Right. You say that. It sounds so obvious. But, again, like, when I look back on even longer, if I'm looking back on the last 15 years of my career, it's like, okay. How often have somebody come to us and and said, like, I want you to do your best work.
Matt:Like, just like, let's what is it? What what is your best work? Like, let's see it. Because more often, it's like, hey. Found this video from, like, large studio that had $2,000,000 budget, like, we want this.
Matt:Like, that's that's the more common thing that we get is like, okay, you already you already found the execution you want. You just want that with your name on it. And that that was never the case. Again, it happens it's happened maybe a handful of times with different partners that we've worked with where it's been like, we want something cool and we want, you know, you guys to do what you what you do. Like, it it's like that thing where it's like we we spend so much time building a portfolio, building our website, showing off the work that we think that is our best work.
Matt:And it's almost a little insulting sometimes when someone comes to us and they're like, alright. We want you to do this thing that this other company did. I'm like, we have done over 370 videos over the last 9 years. I'm like, you couldn't find anything on our portfolio? Like, I I get it again.
Matt:Like, I I wouldn't ever be, like, offended like that. But at the same time, it's like, it's really refreshing whenever you have somebody that's like, hey. I like the work you're doing, and I want you to do that with us. You tell us what process you wanna work in, and we'll adapt. And I guess that that was kind of another part of it where, you know, whenever it whenever we're working on that first video, the Addie video, where it was like like, hey.
Matt:I have this crazy idea for a story. I really thought you were gonna just be like, no. That's a little too emotional for, like, what we're trying to do here. And maybe it's that way because, like, that's the response that I got from others whenever I try to do something like this. And, you know, when I I wanted to put that together because I was like, I I can't stop thinking about it.
Matt:Like, this is this is it. This is the idea. Like, I, like you I don't we've never told you about this, but, like, just day and night, it was like, I hate that I'm about to present this and it's going to get shot down. Like, I was, like, afraid to even, like, talk about this stuff because it's like like, just to know that this idea can't go on, like, it's it hurts. Right?
Matt:Like and, like, obviously, as creatives, we're probably a little bit more emotional than we should be. But We're in
Jess:the right field, though, because we need to be.
Matt:I I think that's true, honestly. But Mhmm. But with that, I guess, a little tangent for me here. That story was important for for me personally for a lot of different reasons And reasons that I never talked about with you, I've written about it a little bit, so maybe you caught wind of it at some point or another. But for me, it was, you know, I lost a daughter, and it was probably, I think, 2 years before we worked together for the first time.
Matt:And even still today, I'm like she was only 10 days old. So for me, I've always felt like it's just a really important thing to share her story in any way that I could. You know, we did that by creating a short film, and I'm not I'm not done. Like, I'm I'm always trying to, like, find ways to kind of let her live on in some ways. Right?
Matt:And for me, it was like this feels really weird to talk about. But, like, it was like, okay. Well, what what what would her story be? Right? Like, if if she wanted to be a doctor, open up her own practice.
Matt:Now, again, yes, we are at the end of the day, like, the product is provide and is a financial company where it's, you know, trying to do business. Right? But for me, I'm like, that that doesn't that's not a good enough story for me to tell. Like, I need to I needed to dig a little bit deeper into into myself to pull something out and and say, like, alright. If we wanna do an emotional story, like, this is the best I have right here because this is a real thought of mine.
Matt:Right? So, anyway, just putting that story together and being able to present that to you all and you all just being, like, this is it. Like, this is the story. And, like, that just it it really meant a lot to me. And I know this isn't philanthropy.
Matt:This isn't therapy. This isn't like you're not trying to do me any favors or anything. This is business. Like, I get it. But it was just it was still nice being able to tell that story.
Matt:Like, that that very much feels like a personal story, and that's truly, it's one of the things that I try to encourage everyone on my team to to to do all the time where it's like, what is the personal story? Like, if if there's something deeper to dig and you to even work some stuff out personally at the same time, like, that's awesome. Like, if we can find a way to do these things. But I don't know. I was just talking, I guess, there.
Matt:But, anyway, I guess it's just a it's a thank you in a way, I guess. Another one. I told you, it'd be just 50 minutes of compliments here. But
Jess:Well, I I'm super thankful that you did bring that to us. I mean, that was the first brand piece that we did after I came on that we were so excited to present that I think and at that at that point, I think our team was only, like, 3 people on the provide side.
Matt:Right.
Jess:And we were so excited to share this. We had, like, goosebumps, you know, and we shared it on all hands. And you know how, like, on the Zoom videos, you could see all the little reactions and everything? I mean, people were, like, crazy about this video. And to your point, it's because it was very raw and really touched on something that felt very personal and human.
Jess:And I think everyone could connect with it, whether it was seeing their children in that space as Addie or themselves as children, and having these big dreams that as adults, we we just let go of a lot, and we go do the sensible thing. And so you pouring your heart into that story and being confident enough to present it to us, means a lot to me because, again, I think that was like, that kind of catapulted our brand and made us really stand out and also made us as a team full as and and when I say team in this sense, I mean, a provide team, not just marketing. Feel like we really had something to rally around. You know? Like, Addie, we love Addie.
Jess:And, you know, it was just it was a great starting point for everything that's come to be. So thank you Right. For sharing that with us.
Matt:No. I I guess what was really cool also is just even after that, just a lot of the conversations we were able to have after that and just what that meant for the future work. And, like, you're talking about the one one with the dog after that, whereas, like, we already we already know this tone. We're not now we're telling a different story and we like, this the tone's already established at this at this point. And that was, honestly, probably the closest that, like, we've ever come to more of that brand side of things.
Matt:Like, usually, it's like we're taking an existing brand and just now let's let's work out what the story is within that brand. Whereas with this one, it was more like, let's push on the walls of this brand, like, to maybe a point to where people might be a little uncomfortable. But it was like I mean, I remember very clearly at the beginning, you were like, we wanna do something a little more emotional. And I was like, okay. A bank wants to do something emotional.
Matt:Like, when you break it down like that, it's like it's like, okay. It could get real cheesy real quick. Right? And and I think that was definitely, like, a a fear of mine. Even going into, like, a lot of later stuff too.
Matt:It's like, hey. We gotta keep this in mind that this isn't just just, like I don't know. We're not trying to be cringey, obviously. Like, we're not trying to just, like, sensationalize or romanticize these stories necessarily. We're trying to tell, like, somewhat realistic stories here.
Matt:Like, we're not trying to, like, go super far out of the box here. It's just being able to tell stories that that could actually exist, and I'm sure that they do. Right? And, you know, another part of that I don't think you talked about this, but, like, another part of it was, like, me trying to relate to it as, like, you know, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an artist. And, you know, a lot of other kids when they when they're younger, they wanna be astronauts or doctors.
Matt:Right? Like, those are, like, the three things that all kids say. So I was like, there's another part of it that was, like, again, just more of that personal side of things. Like, what is that journey? And, like, figuring out where that relationship is between, like, us as the writers and, customers.
Matt:Right? Like, there's there has to be a, like, a real relationship between there. If we're going to, like, tell a a story that people actually care about, then it needs to be, like, a a relatable, scenario. And I think that's that's one of the things that a lot of people a lot of brands really just leave out right now, I think. It's just they they have ideas for good stories, but they're just not really relatable in in some way.
Matt:And, I don't know. I I guess I'm curious on, like, kind of some of those those thoughts too that maybe you have just as far as, like, what you all do compared to maybe how other companies might do similar things. You can say good or bad things about them if you'd like.
Jess:Well, I I think to your point about, you know, being relatable and being able to tell the story, some of the conflict comes from saying, I want a brand story, but then really meaning you want to just sell something.
Matt:Right. Right.
Jess:Right. Two things do not necessarily go together, nor should they all the time, you know, because and this is all business dependent. Right? Like, what we're selling is a pretty, you know, expensive product that people aren't just gonna click an Instagram ad and buy. Right?
Jess:So for our business specifically, when we wanna like, when I talk about brand, I mean, I think it touches a 1000000 points across that customer journey. But, like, the big brand portion that I think is meaningful, very like, at the upfront, the very beginning of the journey is creating that personal connection. And that in my mind should have there's no room there to be selling them something. Like, I'm not I'm just trying to connect with you. You know, I'm just trying to make you understand what our core is at this brand, you know, why you might feel connected to us in some way.
Jess:And then further down the journey, of course, you can blend more of that, you know, sales language in, but especially in the I mean, we did our product videos. So even those, you know, those were story lines. They had story lines, but it was still kind of like there was, it was more of a sales tool than not. For these brand videos, I think just making sure that you're not going into it saying, well, is this going to result in a sale? Because that's not the point.
Jess:You know, and the point is, is this going to result in a connection? Is this consumer of whatever the product is going to think about this video later? Is this something that they will be either a consumer or an employee will be excited to share or be a part of? Like, those are the goals for a true brand project and video in my mind.
Matt:Right. I remember asking you shortly a couple months after that first video released, I remember asking you, like, hey. What, like, kind of data do you have, like, on, like, how well this is doing? And, like, has it generated, like, sales? Your response was something like, we don't know.
Matt:Like, it's really about the the connection. And then instead of telling me stats and numbers, you started telling me about, like, what some of the people were actually saying. Like, some of the potential customers were actually saying after, like, watching that. And I was like, it just kinda clicked for me at that time where I'm like, oh my god. Like, that makes sense to kinda look at it that way where not everything needs to be so quantitative.
Matt:I guess that's right. I always get quantitative people too.
Jess:You got it.
Matt:Thanks. Thanks, everybody. And but it's it's, like, tough because, like, I was like that initially. Right? Like, whenever I first started in the industry, I started being creative where I was like, it's about making people feel things.
Matt:And then, like, after working with so many, like, marketing teams, it just it got more important to make sure we were keeping track of the numbers. And, I don't know. Whenever I heard that, I was just like kinda had this moment where I was like, oh, like, that makes sense. Like, yeah, maybe, you know, farther down the funnel, it probably makes sense to start keeping track some of the that data. But at that very tippy top, like, no.
Matt:Nobody's gonna watch a video then immediately buy something. Like, it's just not within, like, a day. But if you can just establish some kind of connection in one piece of video, like, that's that's amazing. Right? Like, that's that's still really incredible.
Matt:Like, you have to work people down that funnel. You can't just have this one piece that just blows everything up in a good way. And then everyone just Yeah. Buys the product. Right?
Matt:Is that something I Go
Jess:ahead. Go ahead.
Matt:No. No. I don't know where I was going. Go ahead.
Jess:I was just gonna say, I think, you know, it's a for me at least, thinking about brand, it's just important to think about, like this might this might sound strange, but, like, how much of the piece is brand? Right? And so, like, in my mind, you know, you got your top of funnel. And if you truly want a brand brand piece, let that entire piece be brand. Let that be the goal, like, truly.
Jess:And don't worry about all the metrics that you're going to worry about further down the funnel. Like, stop thinking about that and make the goal truly connection. And, again, I said I was gonna say it a lot. This goes back to the team you have around you and what the business cares about. And so you I mean, you might work for a company like I have in the past that essentially says, I don't care about that.
Jess:I don't want your stories. I don't want the connection. I want the person to do the thing because you told them it was going to work for them. There's not much you can do when you're in an environment like that where you don't get the money to do the things unless it ties to a metric. Right?
Jess:And so some of this is like, I feel very fortunate to have experienced and be experiencing working for a company that allows us to truly care about brand. And then with the understanding that, you know, it's pieces along the way what might be 50% brand. Right? And so, like, you know, even, you know, we own a lot of touch points across the business, which I think is also important to note that brand is not just marketing. Brand is also every interaction with your company.
Jess:And so we even help while we provide notes for our sales team to use in interactions that have our brand voice. So that way, it's a consistent experience. Those sales notes don't have fluffy stories in them. They're still brand, but those are truly intended to, like, push a deal forward. And so I think it's just trying to figure out at the very beginning what what is this project and then making sure that everyone, especially the people who say yes or no to your budget, are bought in on the actual goal and what that looks like in terms of output.
Matt:Right. Shelby, anything you'd like to add?
Shelby:I don't know. I because I don't
Matt:know where.
Shelby:I think that sums up things really well, actually. No. I just that connection, like, just going back to that of being able to really and that that's something that I'd struggle with when I first got into the industry of, you know, your storytelling versus the sales metrics. You know, how do things balance out? And when I first came in, I was working in an agency where it was all ran by sales, and there really wasn't anybody talking about the story.
Shelby:Nobody really cared about that because they were only looking at the numbers. And it's so refreshing, I think, to see, especially younger brands and then, you know, kind of pushing, pushing the envelope of what marketing can be and what it really should be. Because, you know, when we're thinking about, like, what has been, like, the history of marketing, it's like, okay. We, you know, we have, you know, more storytelling, you know, way back when, and then we got more into this. Like, okay.
Shelby:It should be sales. It should be sales driven. It should be, you know, this push towards, sensationalized marketing. So I think it's nice to be able to see something something new and almost kind of going back to the roots a little bit of this is story driven. This is something that audiences can care about and audiences can relate to.
Shelby:And, yeah, I think it's inspiring and
Matt:refreshing. Yep.
Jess:Inspiring is a great word for it.
Matt:Let's go into some final thoughts here. Going back to the original question a little bit here, which is, how do you develop a marketing team a successful marketing team, something like that? Did I get it? Yes. That's it.
Matt:I guess what I would kinda change that to a little bit for this final thought is, what advice do you give to to other teams that may not feel like they're doing their best work at the moment. And, teams that want to be able to do more more about story driven, videos or any kind of story driven content, really? This is a really long question, but, you get the idea.
Jess:Get ready for a long answer.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. What advice do you give to others looking to, push their marketing efforts forward? Boom. Go.
Matt:Jess, you go first.
Jess:So I think, you know, my answer would really revolve around why do they not feel they can currently do that. And so I'll just maybe give 2 examples or reasons why. So one is that they're struggling to sell the idea up. Right? And so if that's the reason they're feeling stuck and, like, they can't do their best creative work, I would recommend just slowly introducing these ideas and projects and kind of working backwards, you know, where I was like 100% brand and a little less brand, little less brand.
Jess:Work backwards so people can get used to it. Again, to my earlier comment about making sure that people are brought along in that process. But as then if you can start showing, even if it's anecdotal or qualitative, if you can start showing how brand can really positively affect overall business, it's easier to eventually get to the point where you can do your, like, best creative work. Because if you're in that situation where you just felt really worn down and kind of, like, uninspired, you're probably pretty far away from that. And so going to present this brand project that's just completely different is likely just not going to be received well.
Jess:So small steps. If the team feels uninspired because they don't feel like they're they have a safe space where they can talk about creative ideas and, you know, share things personally or whatever, then that's a that's a whole different issue. Right? And so I think that comes down to team leadership and just, like, honestly, kinda like team therapy. Like, how do we thought how do we create a safe space?
Jess:And I'm sure there are a million other reasons that a team could be stuck there, but I think, you know so my team, when we were going through our high growth phase and this might sound silly, but we talked earlier about us all being, like, a little bit more emotional in general because of what we do. We had a team off-site, and we opened it up with everyone who had taken the 16 personalities test. And we all agreed to share our at least the workplace results with the group, and work styles with the group. And we literally sat a team of I think it was, like, 12 of us sat in a circle, and it talked about our workplace styles and our communication styles, our tells around being, like, annoyed or overstimulated. We talked about all these things as a group, and I think really learned how to work together best.
Jess:And so I would recommend something along those lines if it's an internal team problem, just so you can start to kind of rebuild that trust with each other.
Matt:Oh, love it. Shelby.
Shelby:Yeah. Actually, it's so funny you mentioned the Myers Briggs because we're just talking about that last week. I'm an advocate. Woo. But going on advocacy, I think coming at this from the perspective of a producer, I think it's so important that everybody, like, on your team feels heard.
Shelby:So I think curating an environment where people can have that kind of therapy, where you have that safe space, where people can voice their concerns, their thoughts, opinions, their ideas, what inspires them, I think that's so important to grow a creative team. And I think too, like, obviously, we're talking about, you know, coming from more of a creative side and, like, working with, you know, marketing teams. I think from our side of things, I don't want people to feel like they are taking a risk when they're putting out a fresh idea. I think that, you know, it shouldn't be seen as a risk. It's storytelling, and that's an important thing.
Shelby:It's an important part of our industry and and branding and marketing as a whole. So I think, you know, if rethinking that idea of, oh, this is a risk for me to be able to put this out there or, oh, it's gonna get shot down, I think just the willingness to do it because, you know, I think our relationship has really proven that, you know, if you take those risks, if you, you know, risk, if you put those ideas out there, you can build a really wonderful relationship and, you know, really push a brand in a new direction. And I think that that's, you know, going back to it, it's inspiring. And, you know, I think it it pushes the industry forward as well. Absolutely.
Matt:What I would say I like I like how you approach that from that producer side. I'll approach this from a creative director side. It it can be really difficult to try to push those great ideas out, and for them to be shot down. But I always feel like it's kind of up to us to always deliver what we believe is our best work. Now usually when we do these kinds of things, if we if we're pushing something out there that we're like, maybe this is risky, like, we need to kind of have 2 options to present here.
Matt:Like, one that's a little bit safer, one that's kind of our favorite that we'd love to push for. But I guess truthfully, like, it's there's no there's no real way to get people to just accept your, your your best ideas all the time. Like, sometimes they're just they're you know, might not be seen the same way or I guess what I always go to is, like, if if people don't like the big idea, like, the crazy idea that I have, it's likely because I'm missing some important information. Because it's not like I like, as a creative director, again, like, you know, my goal is to synthesize all the information that I have and be able to present an idea that I think checks all of the boxes. And if I think it checks all the boxes, but I present the idea and it it doesn't all of a sudden, it's like, oh, it's because I was I must have been missing a lot of information potentially.
Matt:So I guess what I would say is, like, if that's something that's consistently happening to you, it's probably far earlier in the process where maybe something needs to be adjusted in some of the questions that you're asking. Now, again, it helps to have a good partner that you're working with that is open to sharing whatever information that they already have because there are a lot of marketing teams that might be a little bit more withholding of some of this information. And it's it really is too bad because sometimes you present the idea and they're like, oh, well, this goes against this, or we have a competitor that does this, or, like, you learn something, like, so simple and you're like, damn it. Like, if it wasn't for that one thing, like, this would have been an amazing idea. So, you know, we we talked a lot about this whole idea of, like, connection, and I I guess I would say the same thing.
Matt:Like, you know, as a creative director or even as, you know, a leader of marketing team, like, when you're working with with people that you when you're working with anybody, there just there needs to be a really, really high level of communication and, truthfully, a bit of vulnerability. And I think that's truly maybe this is because I'm a millennial, but, like, I just feel like that's the thing that's, like, really missing from the work place right now is vulnerability. And I don't know. Again, it it always depends on the partner. Some people are good to work with, people are.
Matt:So it's it's tough to say, like, be more vulnerable because it could end up shooting you in the foot later. But I I just I don't know. I guess, in general, I would say, sort of like you were saying, Shelby, is, like, you know, those things that can be considered risks, I think it's actually more risky to just do the same thing over and over again than it is to do something new. And, yeah, those those are my scattered thoughts, my scattered final thoughts. Hopefully, that made some sense.
Matt:Anyway, Jess, really appreciate you taking the time. Hopefully, this wasn't
Jess:Thank you for having me on. This has been fun. You didn't make me cry. I didn't have a panic attack.
Matt:That's true.
Jess:They were good.
Matt:Look at that. We've made it. We've made it through. That's how we, that's when we ask for guests to come on our show, we say we promise not to give you a panic attack. We should start saying that.
Matt:Jess, where can people find out a little bit more about you? Maybe this is the chance for you to have a panic attack.
Jess:Well, I'm on about me personally, I'm on LinkedIn, so that's probably the best place to find me. And, you know, to see some of the work my team has worked on, including videos. You know, we're on, LinkedIn and YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and everywhere. And our website is getprovidedot com, and we have some of the videos showcased there if people wanna find Addie Barkley. So, yeah, that's how you can find us.
Matt:Nice. Well, thanks again, Jess. And, for everyone else still listening at this time, I appreciate your listening. This is the part where I fall apart every episode. I never know how to end these things.
Matt:You should just
Jess:like move off the screen and
Matt:then Yeah. That's that's it. Where'd I know? Alright. Let's go with the old classic.
Matt:I love you and goodbye.
Intro:The Gmanzi show is created by Made by Things. And if you have a question you would like us to discuss, you can send a message at cmdz.show. And if you like what you hear, leave a review. We'll see you next week with a brand new show.
